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Ok I felt the need to ask the question about a rule I’ve never come across before in my match against Tom Matthews, now before I start I don’t want this to sound like I’m moaning about it and yes Allen I realise that this shot happened to Gareth Potts and the ref ruled against Gareth but at about 52 mins into the match I play a ball down the rail and it wobbles in the pocket and sits there for 3-4 secs and then drops in and at this point I stayed on the shot as I felt it may drop, but afterwards I’m told the ball should come back up cos the ball had stopped.
so I’m asking the question what is a reasonable amount of time to wait before saying if a ball should come back up or not?
May 10, 2012
It depends if the time keeper has judged the balls to have stopped and started the clock for the next player.
If there is no time keeper then common sense should prevail. After the balls have stopped a player has to step away from the table within 10 seconds so that the next player can play their shot. Therefore if during this 10 second period the player has not stepped away from the table and a ball directly involved in their shot drops into a pocket then they continue with the visit. The likelihood is that the ball hadn’t settled as still had some small momentum. This could be an object ball, it could be the cue ball. Balls not involved in the shot don’t matter – they would just be replaced.
The rules are vague on this, and it is not clear cut in the absence of a time keeper. However where there are gaps in the rules then Rule A. should apply. “It is expected that players will always play the game in the true spirit and sporting manner”
yea that’s how I felt at the time, and I’m sorry I did feel bullied into accepting a decision that I didn’t feel was right/fair, it had only been a few seconds and I was still on the shot and tbh if it hadn’t been on the tv table I would have conceded the match as I felt it wasn’t played in a sportsman like manner. And yea I did spit me dummy out for the remainder of the match :s I find it hard to move on and forget, some people can I can’t.
I was asked for my opinion of the rule and I gave it. This isn’t a rule that is written anywhere so I referred to the match between Potts and Davis where a similar thing happened. It can be seen here. The shot happens at 46:15
Gareth also feels hard done by. He complains to the ref and then to the tournament organiser but he is is over-ruled by both officials and the ball is re-spotted.
Bullying certainly was not the intention and I am sorry that Dan felt the need to mentally resign from the match over the incident. Incidentally, if the decision had gone the other way, Tom would have also felt that he would have been robbed of the frame.
The referees guidance on this rule states (from the EPA website) “The instant that the Referee has determined that a shot is over, time will be started. Any subsequent ball falling, no matter how close to time starting, will be treated as falling without being hit, and it shall be replaced where it was prior to falling.”
Yes, I agree with the 10 second rule. It is in the rules under Standard Fouls – “Not moving away from the table within ten (10) seconds of the time that all the balls stopped moving from the final shot of a turn at the table.” This is a rule to encourage players to move away from the table once their visit is over. It’s not a 10 second window where a ball dropping in is still counted as a ball potted.
Anyway, everyday is a school day and we have all come away learning a new bit of the unwritten rules. Thanks for clearing this up, Steve (I think?).
- ok I certainly don’t want to fall out with anybody and I’m having to be carful what I say, in the situation you pretty much told me that I was wrong and to see the rules and whilst I was looking tom was getting my ball back out and placing it back without me even agreeing to do so, and whilst I’m talking to john about it toms sighing about it. The whole situation has made me quite bitter about it. I think the whole situation could have been handled a lot better and was made to feel stupid that I was questioning the shot.
May 10, 2012
There will always be disagreement over the rules in matches, it’s part of the game and has been for the 30 years I have been playing – it happens at all levels. In this instance it is unfortunate because the rule is open to interpretation, not least because the rules are written with the 60 second shot rule in mind and as we have no way to enforce that we already step away from the written rules.
What will never happen is that a decision be overturned in retrospect. Whatever I feel about this or any other match incident, the game or match will never be ordered replayed or a result overturned.
However, all players in the league (or any event at Mr Pools) should not feel intimidated by their opponent when these things happen. Once the next shot is played it is too late, so if there is a dispute it must be resolved there and then. It is time for both players to consult the rules and come to an agreement.
As there is very rarely anyone available in the club to give a qualified opinion (ie a member of the EPRA or EPA approved coach – note: just because someone plays at a high level it doesn’t mean they know the rules) the only source of reference is the rules on the wall. We have a full and unabridged version on the wall. The opinions of players who are not involved in the match are not valid, so opinion from others should not taken into account as they are often wrong.
If after consulting the rules agreement cannot be reached then the frame can be re-racked before the next shot is played. There is no reason why that process should create any bad feeling between the players. In my experience many players don’t know the rules as well as they should and any opportunity to consult the rule book in an unusual situation should be welcomed by all sides of the dispute.
As for the clip above – the IPA are not affiliated to the EPA or WEPF so they are free to interpret the rules however they see fit. If you ask me, I think the time keeper was just too quick on the clock and once the time has started for the next player the decision has to stand.
Having now watched the video of the Dan Rooke/Tom Matthews issue, I can’t believe Dan wasn’t allowed to continue?!? The ball only hovered in the pocket for a couple of seconds before it dropped and Dan can still be clearly seen at the table, so in my opinion it’s still his visit. If Dan hasn’t left the table and Tom hadn’t come to the table, then Dan should have been permitted to continue. Had Dan left the table and Tom was at the table when the ball dropped in, then it should be replaced.
I would never have claimed anything like that from an opponent and in fact, it has never crossed my mind!
Dan’s been harshly treated and I think the only fair way is to replay the entire match.
There’s my two penny worth for what it’s worth……………………………..lol.
I have to agree with Steve after watching the shot. Outrageous for Dan not to carry on he may of missed the black anyway. But sorry that’s a joke for Tom not to even say to Dan ‘carry on’ its still your visit???? He was still at the table and the balls obviously hadn’t stop moving. Rest of the match got affected by this. Not very sportsmanlike. Unlucky Random
yea cheers for that guys, to say I was upset was an understatement as you can probably tell from the remander of the match but I guess I had two options, I could have conceded the match and walked off ( but I would have looked a complete twat if I was wrong) or I should have played on and try to forget about it ( didn’t do that either lol), I didn’t like the fact the ball was placed back on the table whilst I was checking the rules, basically telling me that this was happening no matter what I thought, ( by the way wrong colour). I wouldn’t have called the shot if it had been tom that had played it as id prefer to win in my own merit. Anyway rant over still a bit bitter about it but I’m sure I’ll get over it.
p.s 1st frame I’m snookered on the black and I swerve the white full length table and pot the black, shot of the season wink wink
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